Should citizens of your country that live elsewhere have the right to vote?
Options: (choose one)
Edited 28d ago
imo you vote in one place based on where your "home" is. I get that this can be complicated in some instances.
@evan yes. Until I turn over my US citizenship I am voting.
@evan yes, but folks like yourself should have a special representative in the House and Senate rather than voting wherever you last were resident.
@evan Yes, but not on local elections if you've been away for a long time. Another but: That there's some balance between the voting rights of expatriate citizens and people living in my country without citizenship (many of whom currently can't vote, but have lived here longer than some expatriate citizens and have a higher stake in what happens to the country).
@evan Yes, but only for federal matters (assuming a government with local/provincial/federal splits) and, as a matter of taste, only if you plan to return or for your family to return.
If you haven't got a stake in that country's future (and will not feel the effects of its policies) I do not think you _should_ vote, but given that's unenforceable, then I think you should _be allowed_ to.
@evan Who on Earth doesn't vote "Yes" ?
People who don't understand what citizenship is, I presume.
@evan From some answers, I see a lot of people have the good old landowner (male and white too?) mentality when it comes to voting rights. You would expect people on the Fediverse to understand what democracy and citizenship are a little better.
If they've established themselves elsewhere—job, home—no.
Conversely, unlike some countries, emigrants shouldn't have to pay taxes on income not earned in their former country.
They regain the right on return.
And for the same reason, immigrants¹ who have established themselves somewhere—job, home,… —should be allowed to vote after at most 5 years.
Disclosure: I emigrated from England and never voted there since.
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1. Funny how it's mostly white people who are called "expats", people of colour are "immigrants"
@evan No, but countries should be abolished anyways so this shouldn't matter.
@evan no, but all people resident in an area should be able to vote (which is almost true in Scotland except for prisoners and Westminster elections)
@evan I’m a Brazilian immigrant* and not only we can but we have to - vote is mandatory in Brazil. I only need to vote in presidential elections though.
* expat is a problematic word
Enough people complained about my use of "expatriate" in this poll that I changed the question.
@evan I am a citizen of my country living elsewhere (for nearly 17 years) and I said "no". Ireland has a huge diaspora, many of whom have never been there and don't understand the country or its culture. It broke my heart to miss out on the historic referendums legalising gay marriage (the first country in the world to do so by popular vote) and abortion, but it's the price I pay for leaving.
Edited 28d ago
@evan Yes, of course.
A citizen is a citizen. Those who answer 'no' are saying that some citizens should have fewer rights than others. In this case, no representation. What then does it mean to be a citizen?
@evan Whelp, guess my answer doesn't match what I mean now... should be "Yes, but..."
@evan I answered "No, but..." to "Should expatriate of a country have the right to vote?" (With expatriate in the sense of someone which has given up their citizenship)
@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
@fabio I intentionally chose "expatriate" as an accurate and clear term for describing citizens who live outside their nation of citizenship.
"Expatriate" and "emigrant" are almost synonyms, but "emigrant" is less well known and suggests the immediate aftermath of leaving.
I considered "overseas citizens", "voters abroad", and other terms, but I settled on expatriate because it's clear and accurate.
Edited 28d ago
@evan @fabio Fabio is right. Expatriate is a term that spun out of white colonizers living in the other parts of the world, where they have no intention of becoming a part of the society, including accepting citizenship.
Would most people call Jamaican temporary foreign workers on Canadian farms that are treated as slave labour "expats"?
When I went to China to work, was I a Canadian expat? Would I be considered one from the lens of a Chinese national vs a Canadian? The place where I was born is a part of China now. I don't even know what my rights are anymore with regards to my birth place. I'm a Canadian citizen.
Expatriate is a term that's drowning in class, racism, and white colonial history. Perhaps you should reconsider its use.
@evan @fabio And further down the thread to:
https://cosocial.ca/@evan/115956282132331931
"Country of origin" also gets really messy if you have multiple citizenships and grew up in different places. Or if some citizenships no longer exist (like my birth place).
A clearer, not-problematic question: "Should people who do not permanently reside in their country of citizenship have the right to vote?"
Edited 28d ago
@mayintoronto @fabio In Jamaica, people who are working overseas are called "Jamaicans abroad". There's also a slang term, "yardie".
@mayintoronto @fabio In Canada, some people who work and live abroad are called "Canadians abroad":
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/living-abroad
I also like "snowbirds" for the very specific set of people who live abroad only during the winter.
@mayintoronto @evan @fabio Just chiming in that I also agree that expat is a bad word and you should consider not using it.
I call myself an immigrant from Brazil. People call themseves immigrants from a country, the government refers to us refers to us as immigrants.
We’re not expats.
Thanks for coming to my talk.
@mayintoronto @fabio Great, you should definitely make that poll!
@evan I'm asking you to reconsider your position on the term "expatriate", and to perhaps refrain from using it in this context in the future.
I don't care about the poll itself, since I know that editing is not an option.
@renata @mayintoronto @fabio Expatriate is a problem in a context, and I am not using it in that context.
@renata @mayintoronto @fabio also, as far as I can tell with some quick searching, Brazilian emigrants are in fact called "immigrants" even in Brazil. There's definitely a good research paper in that!
@evan I personally use “immigrant” on purpose since I’m white-presenting and work in tech. It’s an attempt to buck the trend of using this word for a particular kind of immigration (the kind some people don’t want).
I emigrated from Brazil because I wanted to and I acknowledge I had the privilege to do it. Many people in my position would call themselves something else.
Again, this is not meant to cause drama or unnecessary discussion, it’s a personal position!
@fabio Do you use "immigrant" here in Canada? I've never heard a Brazilian here call themselves an expatriate. I've also never seen anyone use anything but "immigrant" in French to describe themselves.
Do you use "imigrante" to describe yourself in Brazil?
@evan Yes to all! There’s also a thing about “imigrante” in Brazil that requires some explanation:
Brazil is not as diverse as it thinks it is - especially compared to Canada. There’s a certain fascination with foreigners there, everyone asks dozens of questions. It becomes a bit of a status symbol because it validates the idea that Brazil is good, actually - so much so that some people *choose* to live there.
@fabio I meant the use of "imigrante" to describe Brazilian citizens living in other countries.
@evan I get it, but everything is related. Brazil is a weird place, worth visiting.
@evan But yes, e.g. my mom says “Fabio immigrated to Canada, he’s an immigrant there”
@evan @renata @mayintoronto For the record, I know. It wasn’t my intention to cause any drama and I enjoy the polls a lot.
@fabio @renata @mayintoronto No hard feelings! It's an interesting discussion to have.
@fabio I am aware of the concern you expressed.
People from richer countries living in poorer countries often have the luxury of defining themselves by their relationship with their home country, so they call themselves "expatriates" and expect others to do so too.
People from poorer countries don't have that luxury. They are defined by people in their new home country, so they are called "immigrants". Association with their country of origin is highlighted as a sign of unworthiness.
@fabio in this poll, I am specifically talking about the relationship with the country of origin. We are not talking about how people are viewed and defined in their country of residence.
There are other terms, like diaspora, used for this kind of population.
So, I'm OK with using "expatriate". It represents an unfair power dynamic in some situations, but not this one.
Edited 28d ago
@EricLawton I think when you are talking from the perspective of the country they left, "immigrant" (in + migrant) is inaccurate.
Other terms we use: overseas citizens, citizens abroad.
I'm not actually across a sea from my birth country, unless you count the St. Lawrence Seaway, so I don't use that term often.
Abroad sounds like it could mean temporarily away, like on a long vacation .
@evan I agree with @EricLawton -- "expatriate" is an imperial term. I see no confusion of terminology in his comment, quite the opposite.
In the context of the poll, "expatriate" was used about emigrants, not immigrants, but the point stands. The clearest term, if a bit long and pedantic, might have been "citizens who are not residents".
Edited 29d ago