@aeva @puppygirlhornypost2 right, even to the extent that one could, with a truly unreasonable investment of effort, make a "linux version" of some software, there's a vast gulf between trying to do that for a server-side thing that mostly runs in Docker and exists in a highly abstract computation space, something that integrates tightly with server-side stuff like systemd, and then something that actually makes pictures and sounds on a "desktop"

@glyph @aeva sound is the scary one. JACK, pulse and pipewire come to mind. at least there are things like OpenGL for graphics, but I don't think there's a unified cross-platform audio library that abstracts over software + hardware mixing. Even if there was... I mean, software and hardware mixing are two different things, even if you don't actually know what the difference is.

@puppygirlhornypost2 @aeva like even forgetting for the moment that OpenGL is deprecated and Vulkan doesn't work yet, you still have to worry about distinctions like Wayland vs. X11, different compositor capabilities, different GPU drivers. Personally my "linux desktop" experience is just trying to make a desk accessory type thing that isn't even a video game, and it has been *maddeningly* difficult.

@glyph @puppygirlhornypost2 Apple deprecated OpenGL, but I'm not aware of any other implementer formally deprecating it, nor has the Khronos group.

I'm intending on targeting OpenGL ES2 for my side projects for the foreseeable future because it is adequate for my current projects, and it has the broadest portability reach between quality driver support and availability of compatibility layers. This is also a vote of no confidence on my part regarding the near future.

@glyph @puppygirlhornypost2 developing for wayland is "fun" because you can and will experience all of the joys of mutually incompatible platform conventions without having to actually run multiple linux distributions

@aeva @puppygirlhornypost2 sorry, was being a bit hyperbolic there. Apple's "deprecation" has had zero teeth because there's just way too much software using it, there isn't another cross-platform option at that layer. and nobody else has issued a formal statement. I just mean that it is widely perceived as the old, bad thing. Vulkan also mostly works fine for a lot of things, not really fair to say it "doesn't work", but there are driver support problems and other assorted weirdnesses

@glyph @puppygirlhornypost2 SDL3 GPU, Vulkan, and WebGPU would be attractive prospects if my hardware cutoff were much closer to the present day, but I want to make stuff that works on my 2012 desktop and other random low spec hardware. I think a very smart strategy for game studios that have the ability to adapt is to assume the majority of potential players are not going to have a convenient upgrade path to new hardware for a while and this problem is going to get worse.

@aeva @glyph @puppygirlhornypost2 WGPU can rest atop OpenGL although I assume some stuff breaks. Not sure about the others.

@aeva Vulkan works on a lot of older hardware though? As long as you steer clear of RT and stuff.

At Velan we treated 600-series NV cards as minspec and we shipped an engine with Vulkan as the primary backend.

It's an API with lots of problems and I personally won't work with it unless I'm getting paid, but "Vulkan doesn't work yet" does not agree with my experience.

@ataylor the machine in question has either an Intel GMA or an Intel "HD Graphics" GPU. It doesn't even support OpenGL *3*

@ataylor I checked and in a sense we are both right. the computer *does* support vulkan, however only via llvmpipe. the GPU appears to be unsupported

here's the vulkan-info output if you are curious: https://gist.github.com/Aeva/974bff1d5de1747756c2cade71a09ed5

@mcc @glyph @puppygirlhornypost2 so, assuming it can somehow run on top of OpenGL <= 2 and/or OpenGL ES2, and that GL2 / ES2 neatly encapsulate the feature set I'm interested in using, what would I gain from bolting WebGPU on top of it in exchange for the overhead of bolting WebGPU on top of it?