@benroyce I wish they would.
wish what? that they try to limit voting?
no you don't
if you're thinking "but then all hell would break loose and shove these shit bigots and plutocrats out"
no
what happens is you raise the stakes and the bigots and plutocrats get more abusive and all sorts of worse shit happens that harms not just the plutocrats and bigots, but us as well
if it happens they try to limit voting, it happens
we will be ready and provide our forceful response
but nobody wishes it happens
Edited 12d ago
@benroyce I wish EU and Ukraine would declare war on Hungary, but on second thought, no, I don't want that either. But maybe they should be kicked out of some organizations, organizations they seem to be trying to sabotage, anyway.
oh yes
if hungary does nasty things to keep orban in power, they need to be kicked out of the eu
if they are not kicked out, the eu is facing weakening and fragmentation
i don't understand how easy or difficult it is for the eu to kick hungary out
but it doesn't change the point:
if the eu can't kick hungary out if hungary abandons democracy, we are looking at a darker timeline coming up, even darker than the one we are already in
Edited 11d ago
@benroyce @lori The EU's hold over its members probably isn't about kicking them out or not kicking them out.
Remember where the EU came from. It was an attempt to turn enemies into allies.
Robert Schuman, that wily old guy, said: «L'Europe ne se fera pas d'un coup, ni dans une construction d'ensemble: elle se fera par des réalisations concrètes créant d'abord une solidarité de fait».
De facto solidarity. In the first instance, making it impossible for France and Germany to produce coal and steel independently of each other.
That's what the British are experiencing. They are coming back into the EU fold, bit by bit, because that's where their interests lie. Like a big Switzerland or Norway.
The EU has the Article 7 mechanisms, but in the end what will count are common interests and whether the other members stand up for their basic values. If they do, they have a lot of leverage over Hungary even outside formal sanctioning procedures.
@benroyce do you kick out nasty states or do you try to bring them back in line?
both approaches have benefits and problems
that's a good point: leverage. only if they stay in the union
but leverage implies someday you're going to do some sort of negative action if someone is noncompliant enough (which does not have to take the form of expulsion, yes)
but if that day never comes, leverage is just a phantom. so noncompliance will reign: people and countries do not mind receiving benefits with no responsibilities. until everything the eu is supposed to be about is a farce, and horrors happen
Edited 11d ago